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Train testing on the East London Line Extension (Phase 2) between Surrey Quays and Clapham Junction has now begun. The route was fully electrified at the weekend, and the first 378 ran on Sunday.

Driver training will begin shortly, and further testing will now take place, ahead of the extension’s official opening in December.

The ELLX2 will bring six more 378s into play on the ELL. It was previously suggested some of those would act as PIXC-busters (extra trains to reduce congestion during busy times) in the run up to December and during the Olympics, entering passenger service as they left the testing environment of the ELLX2 and passed onto the core. Whether this remains the plan is yet to be confirmed.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, TfL’s COO for Rail, Howard Smith, appears suitably chuffed:

The electrification and first train journey on this exciting new rail connection, marks the final major milestone in its construction.

This new track will enable a new service, between Highbury and Islington and Clapham Junction, and provide the final link to make London’s hugely successful Overground a fully orbital railway for London.

Clapham Junction nicely filled with 378s

Clapham Junction nicely filled with 378s

378232 on the first run

378232 on the first run (Photographer unknown)

378232 with Canary Wharf behind her

378232 with Canary Wharf behind her

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There are 181 comments on this article
  1. Anonymous says:

    Is there anyway this could open in time for the Olympics, or are they waiting for the timetable change in December?

  2. John Bull says:

    Timetable change in December.

    But…

    My understanding is we’ll see those 6 PIXC-busters in play during the Olympics. I’ll clarify the post a bit.

  3. Anonymous says:

    I’m guessing that the bottom two photos were taken by someone on the project as I think it was taken on the replanted Bridge House Meadows which is inaccessible to the public. I did take a brief look on Sunday near Surrey Quays but I spotted no sign of any movement and the parallel footpath beside the line remains closed.

    The supplemental track access agreement for 12 daily test paths came into operation today (26 June 2012)

  4. Anonymous says:

    As I’m sure you actually know, in the last photo that’s Canary Wharf in the background, not the City.

  5. John Bull says:

    Yes – photos 1 and 3 are of known origin and you’re right – from within the project itself. 2 came via a currently anonymous source, but the location does suggest the same.

    I’ll credit it as soon as I know who took it. Soon as I clocked the location though my thoughts were the same as yours.

  6. John Bull says:

    Well spotted Anonymous – corrected. Cheers.

  7. Anonymous says:

    Photo 2 must be a fake – the sky is quite clearly depicted as blue, a meteorological impossibility in this country.

  8. Anonymous says:

    Curious to know what is powereing the train in picture 3 as there are no signs of any electrification….

  9. timbeau says:

    Someone’s stolen the live rail from platform 3 at Clapham Junction as well (picture 1), and the one in picture 2 appears to be running “wrong road” as I can see no evidence of any tail lights.

  10. Josh says:

    “Someone’s stolen the live rail from platform 3 at Clapham Junction as well (picture 1), and the one in picture 2 appears to be running “wrong road” as I can see no evidence of any tail lights.”

    Of course there’s no lights. There’s no power as you pointed out.

  11. Pedantic of Purley says:

    c /photographer/photoshopper/

  12. timbeau says:

    “Of course there’s no lights. There’s no power as you pointed out”

    Actually, that picture (No 2) is the only one which does show a live rail

  13. Mulder and Scully.......where are you when we need you? says:

    Batteries included?

  14. Kevin Lynch says:

    Simpletons!! The train in picture 3 is clearly powered by magnetic induction from power cables buried in the ballast on the trackbed…

  15. Gavin T. says:

    Re: missing live rails.

    If you look closely in photo 1 you can see an insulator holding the live rail aloft. The angle at which the photo has been taken makes it look like it’s not there.

    And yes, these units do have batteries so I’d imagine that the tail and headlights run off those.

  16. Patrickov says:

    Mr. Lynch, are you serious? If that’s the case then power rail is probably unnecessary :P

    Anyway, I am rather concerned about Mr. Smith’s words, as he hinted that the CJ service would be from H&I. That would mean one of the current southern branch service would have to be curtailed to Dalston Junction, which would, I believe, spark quite some controversies.

  17. Steven Taylor says:

    Re above email, the CJ service will go to Highbury & Islington. There is a massive poster at CJ mentining this.

    For services terminating at Dalston junction, there will be no change. The New Cross service will continue to terminate there, and all CJ, CP and WC services will go to Highbury & Islington.

  18. Greg Tingey says:

    Patrickov has a point.
    If you terminate both CJ services @ H&I, then one can go right round with one or two changes, but of you terminate ELL2 @ Dalston, you will need an extra change.
    Some re-arrangement is probably going to be necessary.
    As discussed elsewhere & off this board, opening before the Dec tt change could be problematic. Because there are still the existing S-L-Loop trains (Vic – LB) running, which these are supposed to be replacing, and I don’t think you could fit both services in, not with other services. Does anything else leave from Vic Brighton side, and go through Wandsworth Road ?? I thnk not, but, erm, err ….

    I actually think photo 3 is a fake, btw, but?
    And the No 2 does have its running lights on & it is running right-line …….

  19. jordydevil says:

    does anyone know when the parallel footpath will be reopened as it looks finished as I go over it by train!

  20. timbeau says:

    But why would anyone (other than readers of this site) want to go right round?

    Having trains departing H&I in opposite directions to the same destination is likely to lead to confusion. Likewise at Clapham Junction

  21. Steven Taylor says:

    I understood there was a proposal to extend the overbridge at Clapham Junction, and to add 2 additional staircases, one either side, to increase capacity.

    Does anyone know if permission was granted and whether they will be built before december 2012?

  22. Steven Taylor says:

    Sorry to add another post so soon. My above post refers to Platforms 1 and 2. i did not make this clear

  23. Anonymous says:

    …and what does PIXC actually stand for?

  24. Steven Taylor says:

    I think PIXC = Passengers In Excess of Capacity

  25. RL says:

    Does anyone know if the timetable for the overground as a whole will have to be seriously rejigged for these?

    At the moment on the ELLx1 it goes Crystal Palace, West Croydon, New Cross – presumably interleafing a CJ between CP and WC will mean a slightly more regular gap between trains going through New Cross Gate?

  26. Anonymous says:

    Nothing amazing about the traction supply on the new lines – in picture 3 the photographer has managed to miraculously capture the unit right in the midle of the (~75m) traction gap (you can just see the IBJs in the running rail if you look closely that prevent stray current crossing the boundary).

    This gap separates the con rail supplied on the Silwood Junction side from the TfL system and on the Old Kent Rd side from the NR system.

    I believe a similar arrangement is in use at New Cross Gate.

  27. Anonymous says:

    The ELL timetable will be recast to allow 16 tph between Dalston and Surrey Quays. There will only be two southern destinations running through to Highbury & Islington not three as has been suggested but I can’t recall which one of West Croydon or Crystal Palace is cut short to Dalston Junction. If you start at 00 mins then I would expect the pattern to a 3/4/4/4 following headway so trains at 00, 03, 07, 11 and the pattern resuming at 15 and so on. Whether that will give a better pattern south of NXG I couldn’t say.

    At Clapham Junction I don’t think anything is being done to the footbridge because the lift is at the western side of the bridge down to P1/2 with the staircase facing east. You couldn’t construct a westwards facing stair. What is happening is that a formerly closed staircase down to the subway link is being refurbished and brought back in to service and the Grant Road entrance / ticket hall is being reconfigured to provide more circulation space. That work is happening now.

    The footpath and Bridge House Meadow are planned to re-open in “late Summer” (but that could mean anything – those fabled seasonal milestones!) according to a newsletter I got from the Overground comms team last week. The construction work is now finished so I understand it is entirely down to the meadow being in good enough condition to be walked on following re-seeding. Given this year’s weather who knows when Mother Nature will work properly.

  28. timbeau says:

    An even frequency of services both over the Surrey Quays – Sydenham, and Dalston Junction – H&I, sections is only possible if:
    EITHER the Crystal Palace and West Croydon services were to both go to H&I and the New Cross and Clapham Junction services were both to terminate at Dalston Junction,
    OR the Crystal Palace and West Croydon services were to both terminate at Dalston Junction and the New Cross and Clapham Junction services were to both terminate at H&I.

    If West Croydon or Crystal Palace services were to be truncated to Dalston Junction to make way for the CJ services, one of the two sections mentioned above will have alternate gaps of 4 minutes and 11 minutes between trains.

    I assume Dalston Junction – H&I cannot cope with three trains every fifteen minutes (i.e only the New Cross service starting at DJ) – otherwise they would be running all trains to and from H&I now.

    The need for trains from the CJ to continue beyond Dalston Junction must be fairly low anyway – Clapham Junction already has direct services to H&I via Hampstead Heath, whilst most other stations on the new extension have alternative, generally quicker, possibilities to the H&I area, variously via the Northern Line at Clapham North or London Bridge, the Victoria Line at Victoria, or via Thameslink.

  29. Steven Taylor says:

    Re interesting post by `Timbeau`. I understood that 12 trains per hour can be pushed through to `Highbury`. Is this not so?

    Re my post concerning new staircases at Clapham. This was not the reopening of the `old` one to the subway. I read in Modern Railways December issue, that the overbridge would be extended westwards to the end of the formation by Platform 1, over the brick arch viaduct at this point, and new staircases would be build either side, to fully segregate Platform 1 traffic from Platform 2. They are currently widening the new Platform 2 (hoardngs have already gone up).

    I spoke to a LOROL engineer last Sunday who seemed aware of this proposal but was not sure if permission was granted.

  30. Anonymous says:

    Although we are many months away from the service actually starting readers may be interested to look at the future engineering works notice and look at the scale of works on the Overground on the first day of operation of the SLL Overground service.

    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/livetravelnews/realtime/tube/track-closures.pdf

    It’ll be an interesting exercise to work which is the first train and whether anyone on the existing network will be able to take an Overground train to catch it!

  31. Simon says:

    Is anyone able to make a guess at how long it will take for an Overground train to get from Clapham Junction to Canada Water? I wonder how it will compare to the current way of mainline to Waterloo then Jubilee line?

  32. Greg Tingey says:

    timbeau
    Like @ Stansted, you mean?
    Trains going to Livp St & :Livp L St – yes, I’ve seen it!

    Yes to PiXC … the AM extra Woodgrange Park – Hampstead train on GOBLIN is called the “pixie-train” by the station staff!

  33. Tim says:

    Do you think there’s any chance the existing SLL can be ceased earlier than 8th December? I know the East London Line extension opened early (and under budget) to some fanfare. I can imagine tfl would like another PR coup by opening the new CJ branch early.

    Also – as there are only 4tph to Clapham Junction on the new branch, will this be increased over time? The trains are more frequent on the other branches – but CJ will presumably a more popular destination for passengers

  34. Anonymous says:

    @ Simon. I would guess that the journey time would be 20-22 minutes on the Overground service. You would need to factor in the risk of just missing a train at Clapham J vs the much higher frequency into Waterloo. However there is a much longer and far more congested interchange at Waterloo plus the Jubilee Line is extremely busy in the peaks. The greatest unknown for the future SLL service is whether there will be any ability for interchanging passengers to get on JL trains at Canada Water for the short hop to Canary Wharf. I understand it is already a very popular interchange and I am sure there will significant growth when the new service launches. I would, perhaps rashly, predict that the Overground SLL service will be full and standing in the peak within 1 month of the service starting.

  35. Anonymous says:

    The Jubilee line at Canada Water is insanely busy at the morning rush hour.
    I would change at Shadwell and get on the DLR to Canary Wharf for a much easier journey. (Only gets rammed the station after, Limehouse, with all the Essex commuters boarding.)

    When this opens which will be the quickest way to do a loop?
    Starting at CJ? Clockwise? Anti-Clockwise?

    Will the Clapham Junction service be busy from the get-go or will it only pick up from January when the long distance commuters from South West Trainland renew their season tickets, and decide to drop back to Clapham Junction instead of going to Waterloo, because they can.

  36. Anonymous says:

    I believe Clapham Junction to Highbury & Islington will take roughly the same amount of time, 45-ish minutes, whichever way you go. The northern route probably having a slight advantage by one or two minutes, but also being cheaper by avoiding zone one.

    And between all the messing about changing and waiting, it will probably also be about the same time to Canada Water as going via Waterloo and the Jubilee line at round 25 minutes.

    This all based on what I have read, and no inside information.

  37. Fandroid says:

    The London Tubemap http://www.london-tubemap.co.uk has a variant which gives journey times between stations, but not on the SLL between CJ and Surrey Quays as yet. They may be some rounding errors but it gives 47 mins CJ to Highbury & Islington around the north and then 22 mins from there to Surrey Quays. Jubilee Line from Waterloo to Canada Water is shown as 6 mins. CJ to Waterloo times depend on which train you catch, but for the Windsor lines side (nearest to platforms 1 &2) the timetable shows non-stop taking between 9 & 12 minutes (a mere 33% variation on the minimum). So even with a 10 minute allowance for Waterloo interchange, it’ll be quicker that way if there’s a non-stop train just about to arrive. Otherwise it’s a long wait for the next one, or a mad dash through the subway for a more frequent stopping train.

  38. Greg Tingey says:

    Advantage of changing @ CJ – you will most likely, get a seat …..
    And you don’t have to go through the mini-hell of sweating your way down to the JL @ W.

    There is often a “way round, & it often pays to know.
    I think it was the second year of GBBF @ Olympia & there was a tube strike.
    Walthamstow – Liverpool St – Bus – London Bridge – Waterloo East / Waterloo – CJ – “Kenny Belle”. Simples!

  39. timbeau says:

    @Fandroid
    No need to dash through the subway – Windsor Lines trains towards Waterloo all call at platforms 3 and 4, which are opposite faces of the same platform.

    @ simon

    As Fandroid has pointed out above, the fastest tarevlling time from CJ to SQ via Waterloo is 15 minutes, plus interchange time.

    on the current timetable Canada Water to Surrey Quays takes 1 minute, and Queens Road Peckham to Wandsworth Road takes 11 minutes. Thus the SLL will be quicker provided the SQ to QRP and WWR to CJ sections combined take no more than four minutes more than the time needed to interchange at Waterloo. Even with a 5 minute change at Waterloo, that gives you nine minutes for those two sections – and I can’t imagine they would be more than four minutes each

  40. Julian says:

    @ Tim: has anyone heard of any discussion about increasing the frequency of the service on the CJ branch? Four trains an hour does not sound adequate for a connection of this kind.

  41. JeanPierre says:

    My understanding is:

    Highbury & Islington – West Croydon
    Highbury & Islington – Clapham Junction
    Dalston Junction – Crystal Palace
    Dalston Junction – New Cross

    No idea how the running order will be worked out.

    Anyone know how the test trains are fitting in with scheduled services between Old Kent Road Junction and Wandsworth Road?

    And finally, will someone have to provide a Parliamentary service between Wandsworth Road and Battersea park a la Clapham High Street/Wandsworth Road – Kensington Olympia service?

  42. C says:

    I agree that the Clapham branch will end up needing more frequency. I’m not sure if this can be pathed without other services being cut, but who knows.

    Otherwise it might be the last straw to engage 5/6 car trains. And hopefully reinstating the old platform 1 and the big works required – giving three Overground platforms at CJ.

    Regarding Highbury to Clapham – no-one in their right mind would sit on the Overground all that time. By changing at Victoria or Vauxhall (both massively frequent) and taking the Vic line, you’d get to Clapham in about half the time – and have no need to worry about timetables.

  43. Steven Taylor says:

    Re post concerning the Wandsworth Road `Parliamentary service – official closure notices have gone up to withdraw this effective 9th December 2012.

    You have about 2 more weeks to object.

    I will this this service – i often go on it when I am bored!!

  44. Rich says:

    C – very true on HI to Clapham by speed, but if you are on prepay going direct is a single fare, so cheaper. Going WLL means you avoid zone 1 so is even cheaper (i believe) than using the new link via ELL due to Shoreditch H St, so would be the preferred method.

    Which leads to a curious/interesting point: How many other sets of journeys are there which have direct journeys between A and B via two different routes, which cost different amounts with a turn up and go ticket (i know certain rail journeys can be cheaper with advance purchase).

    And perhaps more relevantly, if i go HI – CJ direct, using Overground and Oyster, does it automatically charge me for a journey via zone 1 (ELL) or avoiding (WLL), when both are perfectly valid routes?

  45. C says:

    Via Victoria line or via Shoreditch HS should be the same fare: Z2-1-2.

    No change though, which is worth it to some people. At least there are options!

  46. Anonymous says:

    Starting the Clapham service at Highbury seems a waste as no one will travel CJ to HI or the other way and just deprive some southern customers a Highbury service.Lorol wanting to run the CJ to HI is just a vanity project so the orbital rail links with just two trains instead of three.But the real plus of the Clapham service on the SLL is that anyone working in the Canary wharf area can avoid zone 1 which can save a fortune so if it takes longer the savings may be worth the extra time

  47. Greg Tingey says:

    I’m told there will ne a single “parliamentary” (modern interpretation) train Wandsworth Rd – Batterse Park. Also to keep route knowledege current, for diversions / emergencies.
    I wonder if we will now see the occasional “PSUL” from p/f’s 5-8 @ Victoria going via Batterse Park, and back to the “Chatham Lines @ Shepherds’ Lane Jnc?

  48. timbeau says:

    The closure notice is for WWR to Latchmere Junction and Shepherds Bush – Acton Wells – Ealing Broadway, not BPk to Wandsworth Road.

  49. PD says:

    Last time I read here, and as anomolous as it is, passing through Shoreditch High Street counts as Zone 2. Only entering or exiting at Shoreditch HS attracts a Zone 1 fare. So the CJ->H&I fare should be the same whichever route is used.

    The bigger problem posed by this extension is Canada Water and it’s ability to disperse people from there, as it’s already a nightmare at peak times.

    Again, at peak times, more capacity in terms of more or longer trains is already needed for the Crystal Palace/West Croydon routes. Sometimes 4tph to New Cross seems like a waste.

    It’s great that the ELLX has been such a success…..but it seems already over-capacity in some places/stretches.

  50. Malc says:

    I can confirm there will be one train a day to Battersea Park.

  51. C says:

    I wonder about the New Cross stub.

    It’s a good use of stock in terms of having a turnaround close to the core, but how popular is it from SE Trains passengers?

    NXG is turn up and go, due to having 8tph – but it’s equivalent on SE is only 4tph.

    I wonder if it’d be better to ditch the New Cross section and send trains elsewhere. Or extend it and make it more useful.

  52. Anonymous says:

    @ PD – travel through Shoreditch High Street without alighting is charged as via Z1. Fares from the north end of the Vic Line to Whitechapel and south are charged as Z12. The Travelcard Zone Map clearly shows SHS as in Z1. The only exceptions to the standard charging regime as some “short hop” fares for Haggerston & Hoxton to Whitechapel which are charged higher than just Z1 but less than Z12. All this is in line with the announcement that said that SHS would be in Z1 as a consequence of Boris’s financing scheme for ELLX Phase 2 and the need to “protect” other TOCs who feared a transfer of passengers to Overground if SHS was solely in Zone 2.

    Therefore there will be a dilemma, as things stand, as to how fares to Clapham Junction will be charged from various stations on the NLL and ELL when the new SLL service commences. It is doubly difficult as through services (will) exist rather than passengers having to change trains and having the opportunity to touch a route validator. People do travel right round the NLL/WLL to avoid Zone 1 fares – I certainly do. If TfL increase / equate fares to CJ to the Z12 fare come Dec 2012 then people will be rightly fed up.

  53. Littlejohn says:

    @C 01:32PM, 28th June 2012
    ‘I wonder about the New Cross stub’.

    I think the answer to this lies in the comment by Alex 11:57PM, 8th December 2011 in Peeling the Orange: Usage Stats on the London Overground 7 December, 2011 by John Bull. He (She?) says: “How did the New Cross spur become the second busiest stretch of line on weekdays, and the second emptiest on weekends?” I suspect its got a lot to do with Goldsmiths University. The ELL from Dalston/Shoreditch to New Cross often resembles a hipster fashion parade circa 9.30am.

    It would be difficult to justify removing such a busy service, unless the paths were needed for other destinations. Presumably the students could walk from/to NXG but that would possibly shunt them into busier travel periods, allowing for walking time. Would any resultant overcrowding be acceptable?

  54. Dave says:

    Regarding the footpath, the last time I drove along Surrey canal road, there there was still a lot to do at the road crossing, where the path also crosses from one side of the track to the other under the bridge. It looks as if it will be a light controlled pedestrian/ cycle crossing eventually. It may be that the path won’t reopen until this crossing is safe.

    One idle though regarding Highbury and Islington station. Would it have been possible to do a CJ style staggered platform there to avoid stairs for Westbound passengers.

  55. Anonymous says:

    Re: Clapham Junction platform 1&2 works: looks like a new waiting area will be constructed and new retail space created but application only just gone in. A lot of work still to do re: staircases to the overbridge – THREE new ones will be installed, canopy built and some works to the end of the overbridge made. http://planning.wandsworth.gov.uk/WAM/showCaseFile.do?appType=planning&appNumber=2012/0361
    This application was agreed back in February but doesn’t look like any works have started yet. Grant Road entrance reopens on Monday 2nd July.

  56. C says:

    Dave – Might the issue at H&I be that they want through running for the future on both lines? I think the first step will be incremental – same layout at Cally Road.

    And eventually extending to Camden Road. Beyond there, via Queens Park – they’d be very brave.

    Also at CJ, that’s been created from a middle through line with no previous platform, which only the northern most line had at H&I and there was already some platform for the other freight line, so wouldn’t have been possible.

    I would have liked a footbridge at the back of Canonbury too, although not essential at all!

  57. Anonymous says:

    C: “Via Victoria line or via Shoreditch HS should be the same fare: Z2-1-2.”

    The via Shoreditch Oyster fare would be: £2.70/£2.00 [TfL z1-2]
    The via Victoria line Oyster fare would be: £3.70/£3.10 [NR through fare z1-2]

    The via Camden Oyster fare, incidentally, is: £1.50/£1.40 [TfL z2]

  58. LO User says:

    The ‘New X stub’ does need addressing. It’s a red herring that Goldsmiths students need that service – NXG is closer than NX for about 80% of the buildings on that campus.

    Trains from Canada Water to NXG (and on southwards) are already full at peak times, with passengers waiting for the next service on the platforms at CW. The problems are likely to become worse after the launch of ELLX2. Services to NX then look like an unnecessary luxury and a waste of 4tph. I wonder how many passengers actually change from Southeastern there? Very few I suspect. The majority of people originating journeys at NX could use NXG instead without much difference.

    I suspect the real question is whether extra paths could be fitted on to the line south from NXG, ie how difficult is it to interleave with the London Bridge services on that line? Surely TfL should be getting NR to look at the signalling constraints to getting another 2-4 tph down there…

  59. timbeau says:

    As nearly all trains calling at New Cross also call at Lewisham, the ELL connection at the former is less vital than it used to be – people can use the DLR instead to get to the East End.
    However, as most SE services run on a 30 minute frequency, connections that work one hour work every hour, which helps make it more useful.

    Anonymous 6:41 – LOROL fares were charged at TfL rates – see http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/tickets/national-rail-map.pdf

  60. Anonymous says:

    timbeau: “Anonymous 6:41 – LOROL fares were charged at TfL rates ”

    Yes, I know, that is why I said that they were. I am not sure what point you are making?

    The claim was made was that going via the Victoria line would cost the same as the SLL because both routes would pass through the same zones. But while taking the Overground would be a TfL fare, using an SWT service from Clapham Junction to Vauxhall before changing onto the Victoria line would be a more expensive NR through fare.

  61. Anonymous says:

    @ Anonymous 0326 – thanks for digging out the planning application. There is more to do as you say. I suspect the timescales may be a bit tight because there is an embargo on works due to the Olympics and Paralympics. There is therefore not much time (13 weeks?) to get remobilised on site and getting the work done – especially the wider stairs beside the existing ones plus amended roof and side panelling. The other works for the new platform could be worked behind a hoarding line during traffic hours provided there is separation from SLL test trains.

  62. Gio says:

    I know this is a general question but it affects the ELL which I travel on quite frequently between H&I and Brockley. Why do the Overground trains travel so slowly between stations? I know on some stretches (the original ELL) the stations are close together, but from NCX southwards, the stations are about similar distances apart than many tube stations are, and the tube moves like a bullet and decreases speed to stop at stations much faster compared to the Slow-verground. Has anyone compared the mph? It’s like travelling on a milk float sometimes!

  63. Greg Tingey says:

    Gio
    I think it is to give thenselves “recovery time” – and, like quite a few bit of ex-BR in places, they have seriously overdone it. Ex-H&I trains sit down for a couple of minutes’ sleep @ Dalston J, for instance.
    No cure for stupid, I’m afraid.

    OFF TOPIC, but in the area:
    Arabfly Dangleway is open & Diamond Geezer has an excellent write-up and slideshow.
    Much recommended

  64. timbeau says:

    Gio

    Tube trains don’t actually go that fast, but there is a greater perception of speed on the Underground because of the proximity of the tunnel walls flashing past just outside the window, and at least on Tube stock when travelling on the surface, because you are lower down and closer to the track.

    Also, tube trains are geared for rapid acceleration (and braking) rather than the sustained speeds over longer distances (relatively speaking) of main line services. This low gearing also results in the motors spinning fast at a relatively low top speed, making it sound fast. (Like driving a car at 40mph in second gear)

  65. C says:

    I do find that the new Overground trains crawl into stations more than the 313s did. Not sure why.

    They also have about 3-4 seconds dead time in between doors closing/guard ding ding – until actually moving.

    And yes, the timetable has a lot of slack. I think if they went at line speed properly and it was honest, journey times could be much quicker.

  66. Rogmi says:

    I popped to Clapham Junction the other day just to have a quick look and I saw the hoarding up on platform 2, which wasn’t thee on my last visit. I’d previously wondered what was going to go on the other side of platform 2. I hadn’t thought of extra stairs etc., which makes perfect sense. It’s surprising just how many passengers come up from platform 1 when a train arrives. At around 14:45 there was a sudden rush of exiting passengers along the overhead walkway, and that was off-peak! I don’t know how many exited via the subway.

    I don’t know how much extra traffic the ELL extension will add, but they would certainly need stairs in the other direction to avoid mixing the two traffic flows.

  67. mr_jrt says:

    RE: The New Cross stub….

    Unless you could thread more lines to Lewisham, a far better proposition would be to realign it to run over the Deptford lines to terminate at Charlton, and route all the NR services via Lewisham. Conceivably, you could extend this LO service to terminate at Abbey Wood with Crossrail onwards from there, or if they ever four-track from Abbey Wood to Dartford, LO could provide the local service and Crossrail the semi-fasts. No station loses service, the only real downside being that Charlton to Blackheath becomes a more awkward journey…perhaps best served by a DLR extension from Woolwich?

  68. JeanPierre says:

    I’ve travelled on LO trains between New Cross Gate and Penge West, and they often get a fair old crack on on NR tracks where stations are farther apart than on the ELL.

    Would be interesting to divert the New Cross branch onto the Deptford – Charlton route as they’re not far apart where the ELL dives under the London Bridge – New Cross line near the old Underground depot site, however LO trains couldn’t completely take over from Southeastern as that would leave Deptford, Greenwich, Maze Hill and Westcombe Park without a direct service to/ from London Bridge, etc.

  69. Steven Taylor says:

    Rogmi,

    The hoardings went up last weekend on Platform 2.

    The London Overground at CJ is very busy all day, although currently the only ingress/egress from Platform 1 is via the footbridge as you cannot use the subway until Grant Road entrace reopens next month.

  70. JP says:

    RE New Cross stub

    I always thought all stops to Bromley North would be good. Would involve the building of a grade separated junction just past grove park in addition to any works at new cross itself.

  71. mr_jrt says:

    @JeanPierre
    One of the most significant points of LO is to remove services from the terminals with orbital services though – freeing up capacity at LB seems like it’d be a big win – and LO will be doing just this with the SLL service. It’d still be easy to get there as well – via a change at Canada Water to the Jubilee.

  72. Lemmo says:

    What’s the latest thinking on the mess of junctions at Lewisham, rebuilding the station and potentially 6-tracking the short section to New Cross?

  73. C says:

    The Jubilee is completely full at Canada Water already – more passengers would not be good.

    And removing Greenwich to London Bridge especiallly would be stupid. Yet a London journey perfectly suited to a bus like Blackheath to Charlton is a concern?!

    The mind boggles at some people’s grasp on reality and demand vs. drawing fantasy maps.

    New Cross – there’s no easy solution and it provides a terminus close to the core, enabling better use of stock. Yes NXG is fine for Goldsmiths, and provides better interchange in terms of frequency – but I can’t think of an easy solution. Bromley North would be neat and tidy – removing an anomaly, but would need expensive civils.

  74. Anonymous says:

    @ Stephen T – I thought the subway and Grant Rd entrance (for platform 1) remained open M-F but were closed for works at weekends? That’s certainly been my (limited) experience when travelling through CJ. I agree the WLL service is remarkably busy all day long.

  75. Anonymous says:

    @ Gio – I think the slow speeds on the Overground network result from a combination of factors. Many of the routes do not have high line speeds which will cap how fast trains move. Station spacings are relatively close, especially on the ELL, which means there is less scope for zapping along before trains have to brake. I think the schedule is rather lax in order to provide some scope for service recovery if things go wrong. The other aspect is that the lax timetable also ensures spectacular timekeeping results – looks like someone took the deliberate decision to follow the SWT example of a timetable re-write to “pad” the timetable to give good timekeeping. You’ll note how much emphasis there is in press releases about good performance stats. I doubt this trick will be possible on any future Overground routes as they are much more constrained given other services that mesh in.

    On the routes other than the ELL you also have a fair share of freight interworking and having stable, steady run times will probably ensure the best pathing opportunities for slow moving freights. I am still surprised about the volume of freight that is accommodated on the Overground network.

  76. mr_jrt says:

    Is it really full heading westwards from Canada Water? This suggests otherwise.

    …and why exactly would it be stupid?

    It would free up valuable line and platform capacity for more services from further away. Charlton et al. aren’t exactly far away from London Bridge, so the minimal time penalty of the change at Canada Water has much less impact than the benefits that would come from more trains on the approaches to London Bridge from the further reaches of the network, the Opingtons, the Swanleys and the Dartfords and beyond. Not to mention that they then gain direct services to Shoreditch rather than having to change at New Cross.

  77. JeanPierre says:

    Absolutely agree about extending to Bromley North if an economical solution could be found for doubling and junction at New Cross. Also have ideas about extending the Bromley North branch to Bromley South in cutting from Sundridge Park, into tunnel beneath the existing Bromley North, utilising the existing station building as it is (a) very handsome and (b) adjacent to a bus station, then on in tunnel to an underground interchange with Bromley South.

  78. timbeau says:

    I don’t see how diverting the New Cross spur to take over the Greenwich line helps anyone very much. It simply means that the Greenwich line has a second way into the east end (they already have the DLR at Greenwich), but everyone else loses their second way in (they would lost the New X connection, leaving only the DLR at Lewisham) Moreover, the greeenwich line would lose its direct services to central London.

    Bromley South (via Bromley North) would be my ideal

  79. Rattus Rattus says:

    I would’ve thought Grove Park to Bromley North was more suitable as a tram extension, with the tram using street running for the bit between Bromley & Beckenham. Given that the roads aren’t wide enough for two lanes of trams, I’d put ‘up’ & ‘down’ lines on different roads entirely. This might seem a little convoluted, but it forces there to be only one stop before you get to Bromley. A good thing in my book, the tram gets too bogged down serving loads of stops in underpopulated areas. In any case one way running for Bromley town centre is to be expected anyway.

  80. C says:

    JRT – because people work in London Bridge, and Cannon Street and the wider City, and Charing Cross etc… that is why. Not anywhere near as much in Shoreditch. Those links are why people live in those areas, and why they have developed! Before you mention it. the top of Bishopsgate does not compare.

    You don’t cut a fast frequent link to Central London to give an Overground connection at a station which is stuffed (have you ever been there? Never mind the diagrams!) – why should people further out benefit at the loss of others? They will have Crossrail at Abbey Road and Woolwich they can access. Makes no sense forcing a change when so many walk from a terminus to work? Can they walk from Canada Water or Whitechapel?! Honestly!

    In terms of Bromley, it’s a funny one. It’s so tempting to propose something for it, either LOROL, DLR or Tramlink as it comes close-ish to all. Who knows if anything will actually happen though.

  81. Steven Taylor says:

    Re Anonymous – Clapham Junction access to Platform 1 for London Overground.

    I use the station every day – in fact for the past 59 years I lived in a house that overlooks the station.

    The Grant Road re-building is in the final stages, and since the 6th June, it has been completely closed.

    The only way to access Platform 1 (London Overground) from the subway is to access Platforms 3/4, and use the footbridge to access Platform 1.

    Trust this clarifies.

  82. mr_jrt says:

    @C – You seem to be missing the point. Crossrail & the DLR does *nothing* to increase capacity to Sevenoaks or Swanley et al. via the SEML.

    Cannon St. and Charing Cross are hugely congested terminal stations where platform space is at a premium. Capacity is not infinite and has to be used to what will give the greatest benefit. *Honestly*. Metro services using them is a monumental waste. Services change over time, people adapt. Safe to assume that you’re also against LO taking over the SLL service as it loses it’s links to Victoria and London Bridge? The good people between New Cross Gate and West Croydon didn’t seem to mind losing a large chunk of their service to London Bridge when LO took over – far from it – patronage went up! You must also surely be against Thameslink diverting all those trains via Blackfriairs as they will no longer serve Cannon St. or Charing Cross! Oh noes!

  83. Rattus Rattus says:

    @ JRT- The frequency of the non Overground trains to stations in between London Bridge & Norwood seem to be about 4ph, what was it BEFORE the East London Line extension?

  84. C says:

    I note you say large chunk rather than all – they’ve not lost anywhere near as much. London Bridge services are still 4tph – and more if you take the first Overground and change at NXG – which has the newish semi-fast trains also. Queens Road/Peckham Rye also have plenty of London Bridge services.

    The difference with the SLL is that Wandworth Road and Clapham HS are not used at all. The services to Victoria are 2 car, infrequent and horrid frankly. Whereas the line through Greenwich is a life line, and is high frequency, long and massively used. A complete straw man and apples to oranges, I’m afraid.

    And I’m still not sure why Metro services don’t provide benefit? These are 10-12 car? And at higher frequencies, therefore carrying many more people than to Swanley/Sevenoaks. And especially on weekends and off peak. Dormitory towns are exactly that, love.

    And finally if you knew a jot, you’d know after Thameslink services via Greenwich will only go to Cannon St, meaning they won’t interfere with frequencies out to your leafy exurbs except for a few at the peak. And they’ll gain less interruption (no Charing X – Greenwich movement conflicts at London Bridge for example) – so their reliability will be better. And they may get TL core services too.

  85. Anonymous says:

    Rich said

    “Which leads to a curious/interesting point: How many other sets of journeys are there which have direct journeys between A and B via two different routes, which cost different amounts with a turn up and go ticket (i know certain rail journeys can be cheaper with advance purchase).”

    One is from Z4 stations on the Wimbledon loop. You can travel to Blackfriars etc going either way and the journey time is roughly the same. If you go via Wimbledon it’s cheaper than via Sutton with a paper ticket. Oyster charges the via Wimbledon fare.

  86. timbeau says:

    direct journeys between A and B via two different routes, which cost different amounts with a turn up and go ticket

    Wimbledon to Blackfriars via Tulse Hill, or via Earls Court
    Richmond to West Ham via West Hampstead and via Earls Court
    Kings Cross/St P to West Hampstead via Baker Street and via Kentish Town

  87. Anonymous says:

    RE: speed on the ELL.between New x gate and highbury the max speed is 40 mph and some sections with a restriction of 25 and 30 mph,exspecially between surry quays and wapping.on the NR section beyond NXG the max speed on the slow line is 60 mph but would really only reach 50-55 between some stations before you have to break for a station with the exception of anerly to norwood junction which 60 can be obtained in all stopping service.also on the underground speeds generally dont get much above 40-45 mph it just seems faster as they are trained to hit platforms using maxium breaking technic.get them in get them out policy.with Lorol hitting platforms with maxium breaking is not encourage but a 2/3s breaking technic is adopted.weather there will need to be a re think on this when the core route goes up from 12 tph tp 16tph to maintain headways i dont know.

  88. Gio says:

    Re ELL speeds : wow – I don’t think I’ve ever been on an ELL train doing more than 15mph but I’d need a flashy mobile speedometer to be sure. Doesn’t anyone know an ELL driver to ask?

    Interesting point about the tube having a true “get them in get them out” policy. If only the overland services thought more like that, instead of spreading out services and slowing down trains to meet punctuality targets, they might realise that they could fit in more services. If the tube can aim for trains every three minutes, with a bit of tunnel queuing admittedly, I don’t see why the SLL section can’t! But I’m sure it’s very “complicated”.

  89. timbeau says:

    Seems I was wrong on my third example, because TfL, not NR, fares are charged on Thameslink between Elephant/London Bridge and West Hampstead

    Here are a few more:
    Victoria to Brixton (SE or Victoria Line)
    London Bridge to Clapham North/High Street
    London Bridge to Balham (via Stockwell or via Crystal Palace)
    London Bridge to Waterloo east/ Waterloo via Southwark
    slightly cheating, but:
    Paddington to Heathrow (Express fare is higher than Connect fare)

  90. Anonymous says:

    @ Gio – I don’t think we’ll be seeing tube like frequencies on the SLL any time soon. It will actually be interesting to see just how well the service runs as it has to mesh in with a range of other services and has to filter its way through various junctions. I expect peak time paths are very scarce. There seem to be two big challenges with running the Overground network – coping with LOROL’s fleet breakdowns is one. The other is dealing with the fall out of everyone else’s breakdowns be it Network Rail’s track, signals and power systems or other TOCs’ and FOCs’ trains conking out.

    With 16tph on the core ELL section LOROL will have a bit of a challenge on their hands when the inevitable failure does arise – the current strategy seems to be to stop services until such time as a fix is achieved rather than having a form of “fall back” timetable in place to keep people moving albeit more slowly or with a reduced frequency. Given there are sidings and crossovers in various places it is not as if there is no flexibility in the infrastructure to allow some service to be kept going.

  91. Steven Taylor says:

    Re ELL speeds. Although it is hard to be certain, I believe that ELL trains on the `core` section used to be driven more like a tube train, ie the driver notched up quicker. For example, SHH to Whitechapel was quite an exciting ride, albiet downhill, with 40 mph attained, with longer waits at the stations.

    However, I guess it is more friendly to the environment to drive more cautiously, and the timetable does not require aggressive driving, unless the train is late.

    I do agree with an earlier post, that the 2 minute wait at Dalston Junction in the southbound direction seems excessive. It may be they need to clear the terminal platforms at Highbury, so the train has to do this to slot in with the trains terminating at dalston junction. I am not sure on this point.

  92. Jonno says:

    As someone who used to live in Bromley I can confirm that the Bromley north line was hopeless and a under utilised resource. Given poor connections and full to the rafters trains at grove park, I tended to walk 20 mins to elmstead woods instead.

    Converting it to either London overground or dlr would be very good and would surely be popular so much so that I think a 4 car train every 15 mins in the peak would be woefully insufficient to cope with custom from Bromley, grove park and lewisham!

    A link to Bromley south while an excellent idea would surely be too expensive and again would be overused by people changing from Chatham and Maidstone trains given their poor links to the city.

    Interestingly boris proposed a feasibility study into a dlr extension to Bromley north from lewisham as part of his election manifesto so will be interesting to see what happens.

    Now that I live in Sw London I hope that the new east London service via clapham high street takes some people off the northern line in the peaks!

  93. ELL Driver says:

    Re: Speeds. Due to the short signal spacing in the core section, it can be a crawl if we are following a late running train ahead of us. We are not the underground and operate to RGS (NR) Rules and Regulations. Last year it used to be fine on the Southern Section, however the last few months being held for a late running Southern service from London Bridge or Victoria is a lot more common. We drive on cautionary signals pretty much all day, we see more greens on the core section! Even though the line speed is 60, if I’m on time I’ll only do a maximum of 40 between Honor Oak Park and Forest Hill, as we have 3 minutes between those stations. It’s a balance between people alighting at Forest Hill wanting to get home quickly and to those travelling further not feeling like having to sit for ages! It’s the same travelling between Penge West and Sydenham, I’ll only do 30 for the same reason. If I’m running late and I have clear signals I will drive at linespeed to make up time.

    Also, between Penge West and Sydenham we have the Up Sydenham Spur joining the Up Slow with the signal protecting it on the other side of the bridge, so quite often we leave Penge West on a single yellow and creep round to the red. LO trains arriving into New Cross Gate are always approaching a red on a downhill gradient, so will always be slow arriving into there.

    As for Dalston Junction, TfL want a train leaving Highbury every 7 minutes so they’re adjusted at Dalston. Trains travelling to and from West Croydon have the 3 minute wait each direction. Apart from 1 or 2 per hour which have a 2 minute wait at Dalston, then an extra minute wait at Canonbury. Crystal Palace trains only have 1 minute wait. So if you’re at Dalston travelling to Highbury and waiting for more than two minutes, you know you’ll be arriving into Platform 2 at Highbury.

  94. JeanPierre says:

    Thanks for the info on speeds, ELL Driver.

    My idea for extending the Bromley North Branch to Bromley South is almost entirely to allow an interchange with semi-fast services at Bromley South. If – big if – it was ever decided to extend the ELL from New Cross to Bromley, involving civil engineering at New Cross and Grove Park, might as well go the whole hog and extend in tunnel to Bromley South.

  95. mr_jrt says:

    …bringing things a bit closer to the original topic, speaking of frequencies on the SLL section, I wonder what hard choices will need to be made as the line closes in the on maximum capacity of the central section. IIRC, it’s signalled for 24tph, which at a simplistic push enables 6 branches with the minimum 4tph, or less once you start allocating more to increase frequency on the primary branches, (e.g. 4 branches with 6tph). There’s only so many trains you can send down a two-track tunnel after all.

    It’s returning to old ground…but it’s a real shame the old poplar branch didn’t survive long enough to get the kind of investment the Docklands surely would have brought. Had it still existed then the north-south DLR branches probably wouldn’t have been needed, and there could have been interesting developments with a LO line getting the tunnel under the Thames to a rebuild of the old Greenwich Park branch, and gaining access to the SLL that way and just having an interchange at Brockley. If nothing else you’d only have the capacity split of the NLL between Stratford and Docklands to worry about, which may have enabled more services on the SLL, capacity permitting (and obviously, all the ELL core capacity intended to be used on the SLL would be free for other services). I wonder if sending all the Lewisham services via London Bridge to free up the line to Nunhead and then quadrupling that short stretch to Peckham would have then enabled LO to also have their own line all the way to the SLL…

  96. JeanPierre says:

    Four return test trains each Monday-Saturday evening between Canada Water and Clapham Junction, departing CW at 20.24, 21.19, 22.19 and 23.19 and arriving CJ at 20.43, 21.43 (Battersea Park, interestingly!), 22.46 and 23.46, returning from CJ at 20.58, 21.58 (BP), 22.55 and 23.55 and arriving CW at 21.18, 22.18, 23.18 and 00.23, for all you insomniacs!

  97. Anonymous says:

    New Cross station has disabled access whilst New Cross Gate does not.

    In fact the exit at New Cross Gate is inadequate with very severe bottlenecking of people, it is downright dangerous.
    Only a matter of time before the piffling little shop that blocks the way is demolished to free up a more open exit, and a kiosk built on one of the platforms to replace it.

  98. timbeau says:

    JeanPierre’s information may answer the question raised a couple of days ago, as it gives us a time between Clapham Junction and Canada Water of between 19 and 28 minutes. (why does the first train take six minutes less than the last? – how are they going to achieve 1 minute turn rounds at CW?)
    Assuming these are realsistic of in service times they will be comparable to the route via Waterloo which, assuming a rather risky five minutes interchange, takes between 20 and 23 minutes.

  99. ELL Driver says:

    Timbeau, those times are not realistic of a full service, these are just for testing and running ECS. There will be another driver in the rear cab ready to liven up and get out of Canada Water as soon as the other cab has been shut down.

    They take a different amount of times as they are being slotted in as and when they can around normal passenger services.

  100. Steven Taylor says:

    I live at Clapham junction, and often go to Canada Water. When CJ Overground opens in December 2012, I would use it in preference to changing at Waterloo onto the Jubilee Line, especially in the rush hour. I am 59, and rushing up and down escalators, especially in Summer with the free `Sauna` on the Jubilee is not much fun!!

    Even if the overground was 10 minutes longer, I would still use it.

    By the way, I wish to calim the ptize for being post number 100.

  101. Anonymous says:

    RE:New cross gate
    There are plans to remodel the station with lifts.Hopefully these plans have been well thought out for a quicker passenger flow,as you say the station is not designed for the numbers of passengers that use this station at present.When these works will start i dont know.

    RE:5 car trains
    There is a strong indication that 5 car trains will be introduce on the ELL in 2014

  102. 1956 says:

    If the new ELLX phase 2 extension does go through to Highbury & islington (H&I), instead of terminating at Dalston Junction, this will be no more confusing for passengers at Canonbury and H&I in having two different train services terminating at Clapham Junction – then it is for passengers to work out which circle line services they require. It will also prove useful for those wnating to go all the way to Clapham Junction when on or other of the services is delayed or suspended due to operational difficulties or planned engineering work.

    Noted comment about 5 car trains on the ELL from 2014. 5 car trains are also needed on the NLL. Trying to board an NLL Westbound service peak times at Canonbury can sometimes be a challange with increased local passengers and all those changing from ELL Northbound to NLL Westbound.

    Noted comments about NXG station “not designed for the numbers of passengers that use this station at present”. It may be interesting for a future post to look at how the success of London Overground may result in the need for some station improvements. The entrance / exit of my local station, Canonbury, was designed for a service on 2 platforms with trains every 20 minutes Mon – Sat and every 30 mins on Sunday. Now that there are 4 platforms with trains every 8 minutes Mon – Sun, the number of passengers has massively increased. However they are still expected to enter and exit via one wheelchair gate, one “standard” exit, and one “standard entrance gate. Given that the screen showing what platform the first H&I train is leaving from is just in front of the gates then when you enter, people (understandably) stand in front of the gates waiting for the screen to refresh to check their train departure times. This, added to the many people queuing to seek information at the manned window can lead to a very congested entrance / exit area. This is a problem caused by success of course (more passengers using a much improved railway). Would be interesting to know if there is any plans for a study, and any budget, to assess London Overground station accommodation needs based on knowledge of current passenger usage – particularly those stations whose services have been much improved.

  103. Anonymous says:

    @ Jean Pierre – thanks for the test train timings. As there are 12 paths in each direction per day (as per the access agreement) do you have any timings for runs earlier in the day?

  104. Pedantic of Purley says:

    In one of his more philosophical moments, JB mused that in the 2020′s railway development may be more about rebuilding stations that are large and well-designed enough to cope with the number of passengers than focusing on building yet more new lines.

    Discuss.

  105. Anonymous says:

    @ 1956 – interesting observations on Overground station capacity. No idea if a study is to be done but it will be a system wide issue as very few of the Overground stations are large. If patronage continues its upward surge then there will be problems right along the ELL (old stns) and the NLL and GOBLIN. Even some newish stations like Shepherds Bush seem to struggle under the strain of ever more passengers and don’t think about walking up the stairs to platforms 1 and 2 at Stratford when an Overground train has just arrived! The same capacity issue also faces London Underground where stations are now becoming the constraint rather than the train service.

  106. Anonymous says:

    @ P of P – stations are becoming a problem for LU and Network Rail. It almost seems as if there is a sense that because stations have been there for 100 years or so that they’ll remain fit for purpose for another 100. That’s simply not the case because increased use causes congestion and places more stress on the assets. While buildings and platforms are long lived assets they don’t last forever and a fair number must now be showing signs of decay and wear. Increasing capacity is expensive (for LU and larger NR stns) but it will become necessary at more and more places unless passengers are going to be regularly locked out or delayed during peak times. Delaying people through stations will start to affect (excess) journey time statistics which is a key stat for LU. When you add in more pressure for accessibility improvements a very large cost will fall due in the next decade.

    Crossrail cost savings will cause problems decades hence when the central area stations are found to be inadequate. Sooner than that we will see what the penny pinching has done to suburban stations like Ilford and Romford which are not exactly quiet now. I’m sure there will be comparable issues on the Thameslink route and yet only Central London is seeing station expansion on that route (AFAIK).

  107. John Bull says:

    “In one of his more philosophical moments”

    What a polite way of saying “after he’s a few pints heavy”!

    @Anonymous – Indeed. That’s pretty much why I think station design is actually the major problem facing London in the medium term. The closer you get towards 30tph on any line – overground or underground – the more your problem becomes less one of train capacity, and one of how the hell you move the people that get on and off those trains about.

    That’s why I was genuinely impressed with the new Kings Cross – for all its faults, it at least acknowledges this problem and makes a genuinely innovative attempt to deal with it (a shift to an airport style departures/arrivals setup).

  108. C says:

    They have done a good capacity job at West Hampstead Thameslink actually, but it’s one of few.

    West Hampstead overgound station is another with pitiful gates – and the side entrance area is currently closed off for accessibility works making it even more of a squeeze.

    1956 is absolutely correct – these stations were not built for the high amounts of traffic they receive now – at West Hampstead in the peaks there are 16tph total and often if they overlap, it’s carnage.

  109. JeanPierre says:

    Anonymous – I found the timings on the railforums website. No mention of early mornings or any other times. If there are 12 paths available each way on a daily basis, presumably the number of test trains will increase during he next five months until the December kick-off.

  110. Long Branch Mike says:

    Perhaps Overground stations, & more Underground stations, will require directional passenger flow to keep streams of people separate & efficiently moving. More corridor space & passageways will obviously be needed in some situations.

    The Jubilee-ELL interchange at Canada Water is an obvious case where capacity has been maxed at rush hour.

    London needs more Overground!

  111. Rogmi says:

    I’ve had a look on Open Tain Times at Canada Water station and they only show the times previously posted here

    http://www.opentraintimes.com/
    Enter Canada Water or the code ZCW for the station name
    IMPORTANT – make sure you select “Detailed” from the options or special trips (which these are) will not be shown.

    The trains are easy to spot because they look a bit out of place labelled Clapham Junction or Batterseas Park :-)
    Click on the “i” next to the headcode to display details of the train’s trip
    20:24 is the first To time listed.
    The trains are booked to reverse in platform 3, except the last train, which reverses in platform 4 for depot.

    The details should be available at any of the stations on the routw, but you will have to filter through a lot of trains at Clapham Junction (CLJ)

  112. Anonymous says:

    @ Jean Pierre and Rogmi – thank you both for the running info. I had looked at that site before but only in the afternoon period. Shame it is only running in the evening – I’d like to get some photos but I’m not confident about hanging around a footbridge near Surrey Quays in the evening as that’s the only new bit of line that is accessible at present.

  113. Steven Taylor says:

    I was at Clapham Junction last night, and sure enough, the train from Surrey Quays arrived at Platform 2, a little late at 20.46. It departed at 20.58.

  114. moogal says:

    In many ways it’s a shame that Highbury & Islington will still only get 2 out of the 4 northbound service, as in my experience travelling regularly on that section, the Dalston trains are very lightly loaded north of Shoreditch, whereas the Highbury ones (especially at peak times) can be very full indeed!

  115. MiaM says:

    Re coping with increasing passenger numbers:

    How much does gates affect passenger flow?

    Of course you could have loads of gates but where space is at premium the cost in reduced passenger flow capacity must be considered in the (perhaps in UK non-existing?) debate over gated v.s. open stations.

    In places like everywhere in Germany, everywhere in Sweden except Stockholm, everywhere in Denmark, everywhere in Budapest (Hungary) e.t.c. there are no gates, only in some places line drawn on the floor/ground where you have to have a valid ticket to be inside of the line.

    This not only increases passenger flow capacity at the main entrances/exits but also make it possible to open new simplified entrances and exits, for example between platform level and a street or bus/tram stop next to a platform (for example West Croydon southbound NR platform v.s. tram stop, they are adjacent but there is a long walk between them because of the gateline policy), and also open entrances/exits between platform level and shopping places or other “places of interest”. There would also not be a cost issue of keeping all entrances/exits open at all times that there are a train service. (Atleast in some places where gatelines are used some entrances are closed off peak to reduce cost of a staffed gateline. In for example a fire situation I’m sure that there is far more need for staff around a gateline than at a gateless exit.

    And yes, I know that open gatelines will lead to more fare evation, but in a situation where infrastructure is constrained the main issue must be how to make it possible for people to commute. I think that securing fare payment should come in second place, and that could be done by random ticket inspections.

  116. Anonymous says:

    @ MiaM – I don’t think gates have a big impact in relation to the general comments about station capacity. The issue is that the stations are too small for the numbers of people. That is ticket halls, corridors, stairs, escalators, platforms – all too small because people have to queue or else move very slowly. On some of the Overground stations you cannot get down the stairs if you happen to arrive just as people are coming up after a train has arrived. Gates make no difference to how wide a staircase is.

    If we had no gates we would still have to have validators in some sort of ordered position to allow Oyster to work properly. I’m biased as I was involved in many LU gating schemes but I do think gates generally help with the management of flows and ensuring people validate their Oyster cards. They aren’t perfect though and some gating schemes are less than ideal (IMO). It is also worth recalling that prior to widespread gating on LU that the old process involved people squashing their way past a ticket collector’s box and a narrow gap in fixed barrier line. If you were really lucky a second gap would be opened up in the rush hours. Sometimes these gaps catered for entry *and* exit flows. Patronage is vastly greater these days than back in the 80s and stations would be inoperable under the old, non gated scenario.

    The West Croydon situation has been fixed by the construction of a new side exit to give easy access to the trams. LU accepted that there were a tiny number of places where gates would not work. Unfortunately the TOCs (with the DfT pushing them along) seem determined to put them in regardless of practicality or local issues like side exits. Their actions have, again IMO, devalued the usefulness of gates as an aid to improving revenue protection.

    I would agree that money should not come in front of safety but gates should never, ever be an impediment to evacuation capacity. This is assessed by the Fire Brigade and gates would not be put in if the Fire Brigade were not content. If gates were to be removed then there would be a significant increase in evasion and operation of Oyster would almost certainly be damaged with people forgetting (purposely or not) to validate and then being charged maximum fares. TfL would be subject to a lot of criticism and would face extra costs in sorting out the resultant Oyster mess.

  117. Martin Phillp says:

    @ Rattus Rattus – Pre ELL, between NXG and Sydenham had 6tph. Northbound all to London Bridge, 2tph to Victoria, 2tph to Caterham and 2tph to Sutton southbound. The latter is now a Victoria via Crystal Palace service.

    Penge West and Anerley had 2tph, which has increased to 6tph and Norwood Junction had 4tph as the Caterham’s were fast from Sydenham.

  118. Greg Tingey says:

    Anon @ 09.11/07/07/2012
    VERY correct
    The really dangerous situation @ Waterloo East, with two inward-facing barrier-lines, and no escape possible if trapped between them comes to mind.
    Oh, and it isn’t really the TOC’s (just for once) it’s DafT …..

    However, lots of travelling ticket inspectors, in threes & fours, would probably be cheaper than all the gates.
    That’s how it is done in Germany & the Netherlands, but of course they are Johnny Foreigner, so we can’t do that (except for Brussels directives, of couse)

  119. JeanPierre says:

    Getting back to the main thread of this discussion, I assume the test train that runs to/from Battersea Park rather than Clapham Junction is to provide route knowledge so that, in the event of problems between Factory Junction and Clapham Junction, trains can divert to terminate at and start from Battersea Park instead of suspending the service between Surrey Quays and Wandsworth Road. Presumably anyone who needs to travel to/from Clapham Junction could nip round the corner to/from Queenstown Road and jump on a Windsor Lines train.

  120. Steven Taylor says:

    JeanPierre,

    Its even better. For any LO train diverted to Battersea Park, you would simply cross the island platform for Clapham Junction. I often do this.

    Not so good in the other direction – down some steep stairs.

  121. JeanPierre says:

    Of course – what was I thinking of?!

  122. Anonymous says:

    anyone have the facts concerning surrey canal road station, will it won’t it ?@?? i believe it depends on the first phase of the Renewal project around millwall beginning, then Renewal give TfL £10 million for the station ??? i can see what looks like a station already there !!

  123. JeanPierre says:

    Having spent most of my career in building surveying, I should imagine that the contract document for the Renewal project will contain a Prime Cost Sum for provison of Surrey Canal Road Station, therefore every contractor tendering for the construction works will include that sum, whatever it is, and when the time comes the money will be paid to TfL’s preferred contractor to build the station, financed by the client (Renewal).

  124. Anonymous says:

    renewal project is in phases and phase 1 is go.
    The station will be built, some say not before 2015. But that seems too long a wait.

    They have been doing media for the project and models have been on display in person and online.

  125. Long Branch Mike says:

    @Anonymous

    Can you point us to the online information?

  126. Anonymous says:

    So a test run was made as long ago as 26 June? I have been scanning the new section as my Network Southeast train passes the Surrey Canal junction for any signs of train testing. I might wonder down to the footbridge near Surrey Quays station over the weekend to see if anything more is happening.

  127. Steve Taylor says:

    Anonymous
    I have been observing from my house Window, and also in person on Platform 1/2 the arrival of a test train at Clapham Junction about 21.43. This leaves around 21.56. It arrives on Platform 2. On one day, both Platforms 1 and 2 had the `green` at the same time.
    I am not sure if this info. is correct, but my recollection was that initially at least, testing was taking place in the evening.

  128. Steve Taylor says:

    Re my above post. I meant to say 20.43 and 20.56 and not the later time. Sorry

  129. Anonymous says:

    How do you know they are test trains and not a regular service into Clapham Junction?

  130. Steve Taylor says:

    Anonymous

    2 reasons why I` know` it is a train from Surrey Quays

    The train comes up from Longhedge Junction – you can see this from Platform 3 at Clapham Junction. And I basically spoke to the driver and colleague when they changed ends at Platform 2.

    I must confess, I spoke with a L.O. guy at Clapham Junction a few weeks ago, who gave me a verbal heads up when they would be testing. I was only interested in the first train, but they have paths every hour from about 2000 hours to 2300 hours. I think Network Rail has given them about 11 paths a day Monday to Saturday, but not Sunday, although I cannot remember where I got this info. from.

  131. Rogmi says:

    See an ealier post of mine – I posted the link to the test train details at Open Train Times

  132. Steve Taylor says:

    Rogmi,

    Many thanks.

    Very useful information.

    By the way, I have lived for 58 years in the same house overlooking Clapham Junction Station, so I can easily see what is going on.

  133. Rogmi says:

    Extended test / route learning times between Canada Water and Clapham Junction / Battersea park start from Monday 10 September. The timetable runs M-F until Friday 7 December.

    If anybody is interested, I have compiled a timetable of the trips and uploaded it to:
    http://www.microlp.co.uk/Var/railway.html

    for detailed timetable information, see the relevant stations on OpenTrainTimes.com (remember to select “detailed”)
    for the route and platform layouts, see the London carto.metro map

  134. Steven Taylor says:

    Rogmi,

    Many thanks for your post.

    I will look out for the extra trains from 2nd week September.

  135. Rogmi says:

    Looking at the timetable from 10 December when the extension to Clapham Junction is officially open for passenger service, I see that they no longer specify platform 1 for the service from H&I via Willesden, or for the service via Whitechapel. Instead they specify platforms 0-2. Obviously this gives them some flexibilty in what platforms they can terminate a particular trip in if necessary. However, do they know something that we don’t, or are they just being optimistic :-)

    I see that they appear to stable the last train from both branches in the platforms at Clapham Junction. I don’t know if that’s correct or not. I don’t know if they do that with the present service from platform 1.

    Slightly off topic, the ELL passenger timetable shows the first train along the branch as the 05:46 from Dalston Junction to Battersea Park. Non-stop (presumably empty) from Dalston Junction to Canada Water. The return trip is to Highbury & Islington.

    There is a second train to Battersea Park – 22:38 from Highbury & Islington, stopping all stations. The return trip is non-stop (presumably empty) 23:04½ Battersea park to Dalston Junction, where it reverses and runs empty to New Cross Gate depot. (Open Train Times shows this train arriving in platform 2 at Battersea and departing 5½ minutes later from platform 1, so I assume this is a mistake – the first train reverses in platform 2).

  136. Whiff says:

    So are the trains to Battersea Park officially Parliamentary trains. If so does anyone know why DfT are going to the effort and expense of officially closing the lines between Wandsworth Road and Olympia and Shepherds Bush and Acton while not closing this stretch?
    http://www.londonreconnections.com/2012/dft-looks-to-end-wandsworth-olympia-parliamentary-train/

  137. Steve Taylor says:

    I wonder why they quote Platforms 0 to 2 as Platform 0 is the renamed Platform 1 that has had no track since 1980, and unlikely to have any track soon!

    Rogmi,

    I am intrigued to know where you found the December timetable for the

  138. Steve Taylor says:

    Here is my complete post.

    Rogmi,

    I was intrigued they quote Platforms 0 to 2, as Platform 0 (the renamed Platform 1) has seen no track since 1980, and is unlikely to see any track soon.

    Please advise where you found the December timetable for the new extension? Is it in the public domain yet?

    Re the new Battersea Park `Parly` trains. It may be that TFL are happy to run public trains to Battersea Park to retain route knowledge as I understand they will divert trains to BP if the route to Clapham Junction is unavailable, say for Sunday track maintainence.

    Southern trains are used for the Parly service to Kensington, and it may be that as Southern will no longer run the South London line service, London Bridge to Victoria, they are unwilling to run the Parly service. I am aware that the train they currently used is run up anyway from Selhurst empty to Wandsworth Road to be used as a Pixie busting service Clapham Junction – Kensington etc. So this may not be the full story.

  139. Rogmi says:

    The details are on opentraintimes.com Canada Water for 10 December is here: http://tinyurl.com/ch58xxv

    I can’t find an easy way to access dates other than the preselected ten days either side of the current day. However, I played around and there is one way to do it by changing the
    information in the address

    Initially get to the station you want, so you have details in the address bar (e.g. Canada Water) then amend the relevant bits of the address for the station, date, time etc. you want.:

    Location/ZCW  = the station code (ZCW = Canada Water)
    day=10        = the day (10 = 10th)
    month=12      = the month (12 = December)
    time=0530     = the start time (05:30)
    &year=2012    = uear (2012)

    Therefore, to look up Battersea Park (BAK) at the same date and time,
    change code ZCW to BAJK
    for Highbury & Islington (HIGHBYA) at the same date and time, change
    BAK to HIGHBYA
    and so on.

    Likewise, to look at a timetable on the 23rd, change 10 to 23  and
    so on

    Make sure you only change the station code or the day etc. numbers
    and don’t accidently delete anything either side – e.g. delete / change 
    BAK, not BAK?

  140. rogmi says:

    Sorry, “Therefore, to look up Battersea Park (BAK) at the same date and time,
    change code ZCW to BAJK” should have been “change code ZCW to BAK” – finger slipped!

  141. Steven Taylor says:

    Rogmi,

    Many,many thanks for taking the trouble to give detailed instructions re the site.

    I can see I am going to spend several hours today looking at the new timetable. I confess, I love looking at timetables, but please keep this confidential. My friends would not understand!!

  142. Steven Taylor says:

    I am intrigued as to why Dalston Junction Station has East London Line in brackets after the name on the site Rogmi has given/- Also I note in the public timetable it appears as Dalston Junction ELL.

    A trivial point I know – but why?

  143. Anonymous says:

    You can search for future dates by clicking on search at the top and then location. It gives you free range of dates then. Of course until we are at T-12 it could probably still change.

  144. Rogmi says:

    @Anonymous
    Thanks for that, I hadn’t thought of getting the date that way – more simpler!

  145. Rogmi says:

    Looking at the advance closures notice on the TfL site, the ELL will be diverted to Battersea Park all day on Sundays 27 January and 3rd February. This are much more civilised times than the dead early or late weekday times for anybody who wants to travel over that section on LO :-)

    These changes are not shown on Open Train Times at present

  146. Steve Taylor says:

    Rogmi,

    Thanks for update. I travelled on the Kensington O. Wandsworth Road `Ghost` train on Wednesday, and the guard was amazed as there was a `real` passenger (young girl) who actually wanted to travel to WR, and was not a train buff.

    When LO runs the couple of trains a day to Battersea Park Station from 9th December, will they be looked on as Ghost Trains? Just a thought!!!

  147. ELL Driver says:

    As a driver for LOROL on the ELL I just have a few comments to make on speeds, journey times and braking techniques:

    Through the core section – notably Dalston Junction to Surrey Quays there are some quite severee gradients and some extremely short platforms with short distances between stations. Braking to stop accurately at the stop board (which is sometimes ‘off’ the platform) on either an uphill or a downhill gradient requires a more considered and careful approach. On the Southern sections if you overrun the stop board by 6 feet it doesn’t particularly matter. If you do so on some of the core stations (such as Rotherhithe on the up) you will have the passenger doors beyond the barrier and it really will be an overrun (with all the associated delays and inconvenience. I am aware that even experienced drivers who come over to the ELL speak about the ‘intensity’ of the route and the concentration required.

    The linespeed between H&I and NXG is no greater than 40mph at any point but there are about 14 speed changes (one direction) compared to just two between NXG and say Norwood Junction (these being at either end – the rest of this section being 60 mph on the slow). On the core drivers pretty much take it up to linespeed – especially at peak times otherwise you will fall behind. Safety of course comes first, so this doesn’t mean notch 4 and shut off at 40, it will more than likely mean shutting off a few mph sooner and letting it role up to linespeed. We know where to do this to avoid having to brake to avoid overspeed. If we were braking constantly the longitudinal seating and large numbers of standing passengers would soon account for complaints about jarred necks! As someone mentioned already, we tend to use brake step 2 and ease down to 1 for reasons of comfort as well as for control of the unit on those short platforms. Step 3 is held in reserve for times such as low adhesion (it is surprising just how slippery certain sections get in light drizzle – such as at Hoxton or on the flyover past the depot). It’s also used on the odd occasion where a driver was a second or two late with their braking point (that’s all it takes). The emergency brake is obviously there for just that – an emergency.

    At rush the timetabled dwell times at Dalston Junction and Canada Water are necessary. Without them there would be no separation of services (it is not much fun for drivers or passengers to constantly be running on restrictive aspects). The same applies to the Southern section to a degree. The morning rush on the up normally makes for more of a struggle to keep to time as people force doors, trains take longer to load and before you know it you are a couple of minutes down and you know the dwell times are already taken care of further up the route. On the down, I tend to agree that on most occasions the timetable is generous between Honor Oak Park and Anerley. This is partly why drivers rarely take up full power as it is better for passngers to feel like they are on the move (allbeit not at full line speed) than push it to 60 and then dwell for 2 minutes at each station. We generally all adjust our acceleration and braking techniques to take these factors into account. Of course if we constantly hit linespeed and delayed braking we would get ahead of the timetable – a no-no for those expecting to catch a train at a given time.

    Generally speaking the turnaround times at West Croydon, Highbury & Islington and New Cross are reasonably genreous if things are running to schedule, but if they were made tighter there would certainly be delays. Running a high intensity metro service requires there to be some built-in measures to get back on timetable. Crystal Palace only has about a 6 minute turnaround, which if you were to get in 2 mins late is beginning to push it. Remember that drivers ideally need that small break otherwise the intensity of the service would be quite exhausting – but there are times when of course it is a straight turnaround and go.

    On the door delays, we are DOO on the ELL. Again, safety comes first and to reduce the chance of wrong side door release we move the TBC from brake step 1 to 3, switch the DDS to neutral and then release the doors after a brief pause. It does make for a short delay but in my view it is preferable to my experiences on the tube when on many occasions the doors have been opening before the train has been fully stopped. I respect tube drivers but I have to say that the approach speeds into stations (perhaps some of these are automated?) and the ‘relaxed’ door operating procedures would never form part of mainline driver training these days.

    Sorry for the long post (I could have said even more!), I know this thread was on the Clapham extension, but I have yet to start my road learning on this so I can’t offer much beyond what has already been said

  148. ELL Driver 2 says:

    Sorry, I must apologise that I had not read that someone else had already used the name ‘ELL Driver’. I had not read their post and I clearly chose a fairly obvious username! The post above was made by me and I am not the original ELL Driver who posted on 30th June (interesting to note that we share a common view though).

  149. timbeau says:

    Now that we are at T minus 12 weeks, the times are on National Rail’s Journey planner.

    What we have through Shoreditch in both directions each fifteen minute cycle, off peak, is
    Croydon -(5m)- Palace- (4m) – New Cross- (3m) – Clapham Junction (3m) and repeat.
    Northbound services’ origins are in the cycle:
    Palace (5 min) Croydon (4min) Clapham (3 min) New Cross (3 min) – etc .

    The intervals are as close to even as you could get given that 15 is not divisible by four, and given the need for the services via New Cross Gate to fit in with the London Bridge services – - where the ELL services have to fit in with the 4tph service from London Bridge (running alternately to Caterham and Victoria via Gipsy Hill) – to create a five minute frequency on the Forest Hill route

    The Clapham Junction and Crystal Palace services which run to/from Highbury, giving a 7/8 minute frequency between there and Dalston Junction, and meaning that New Cross, Penge West, Anerley, Norwood Junction and West Croydon have no direct service to H&I.

    The Clapham Junction services pass the NLL services from Stratford to CJ between Highbury and Canonbury, leaving both stattoiuns within two minutes of each other. Since both routes are timetabled to take 50 minutes from Highbury, the advice at Highbury should be to always take the first train, (which will be the ELL service unless you narrowly miss it) but at canonbury to wait for the ELL train (even though the NLL one will come in just before it).

    Actually NR’s journey planner advises you to go via Vauxhall – supposedly 5 minutes quicker!
    -

  150. Anonymous says:

    Sohow will Oyster know which way you went, as Shoreditch is Zone 1 and attracts a higher fare.

  151. Tim says:

    I think someone said earlier that you won’t be charged more for passing through Shoreditch High Street – it’s only if you get on/off there it counts as a Zone 1 fare

  152. Malcolm says:

    If that is correct then it is a bit odd. The general rule of the zones is that passing through counts (so you cannot go from Mill Hill East to Morden on a zone-4 only ticket).

    In fact the whole of TfL pricing is ripe for a big simplification. Trouble is that there would be bound to be winners and losers, and the losers shout loudest. Same problem as UK’s over-complex tax system (but I digress…).

  153. Michael Jennings says:

    That’s not true. Pass through Shoreditch High Street and you are charged a Zone 1 fare, whether or not you get off. As far as I can tell, London Overground / Orbirail etc was sold at times as a way for people to get to one part of non-central London to another part of non-central London without paying a zone 1 fare, but they later decided to make Shoreditch High Street to be Zone 1 because of all the City workers who were likely to get off there and go to work in offices around Liverpool Street.

    Give that, I don’t think an arrangement in which people starting or ending a journey there are charged a Zone 1 fare and people making a through journey are not would be such a bad idea, but it has not been done. London’s fare zones do not work like that. My hunch is that if this was introduced people would start lobbying for similar things elsewhere that TfL would prefer to avoid.

  154. paul says:

    How about taking London Overground from New Cross down to Lewisham on what will become the disused Lewisham DLR station. I am guessing that DLR will continue the DLR service onwards, before it turns into and under Lewisham station. You could keep the disused DLR station as TWO platform and using a Single Track Ldn Overground for part of the way. until just before it reaches St John station. And at New Cross the north bound track bed actually exist without any current tracks bed in place. You would have such a greatly enhanced transport hub at Lewisham, along side the DLR continued service to Catford/Forest Hill.

  155. Steven Taylor says:

    Here is a real puzzle.
    I have just checked a journey on National Rail train times from Clapham High Street to Clapham Junction today (12 minutes) on Southern with a 5 minute wait (connection) at Battersea Park and from 9th December the new direct service on Overground – wait for it – is (12 minutes).
    This is surely a mistake. But no! 10 minutes is allowed from Wandsworth Road to Clapham Junction for a 4/5 minute journey. Why so much recovery time? The new service will have sole use of the new Platform 2 at CJ. It seems unlikely the train will ever be late.

  156. Malcolm says:

    Could it just be a ruse to cut out payments for late arrival. Charter minutes, or something, don’t they call it?

  157. timbeau says:

    IT’s quite normal for the last stage to be given longer to allow a “right time” arrival to be recorded at the terminus where performance is measured/ avoid unnecessary delay en route waiting for time.

    In the return direction the trains are allowed 8 minutes.

    A similar discrepancy appears on other routes – Battersea Park to Victoria 8/11 minutes

    This allowance leads to a curious result between Wrexham General and Wrexham Central (the latter being the terminus of the line from Bidston). The train from Bidston is due to call at General four minutes before it calls there on the return trip. The timetable gives it two minutes to get from Central to General, but five minutes to get from General to Central in the first place – leaving it MINUS 3 minutes to turn round – and yes it is the same train – there is no passing place between the two stations.

  158. Steven Taylor says:

    I have been doing some more checking. Currently on Southern the journey from Queens Road Peckham to Wandsworth Road takes 11 minutes. The new Overground service takes 13 minutes. I also imagine the 378`s have better power to weight ratio, which will help on the various gradients on the line. So at face value there is 2 minutes padding here.

    I have been playing the new 225 studios cab ride and allowing for passenger egress / ingress, it will take 7 minutes to traverse Wandsworth Road to Clapham Junction – so I was slightly misleading in saying 4 to 5 minutes.

    Notwithstanding my comments, I love London Overground. A big improvement on Silverlink, etc.

  159. Steven Taylor says:

    @Littlejohn

    Thanks for posting link. I had missed this.

  160. Whiff says:

    Interesting link – though I still can’t quite visualise what they’ve done at Clapham Junction.

    And as excitement mounts it’s probably worth posting this link to the original London Connections site which shows the route the new line will take. Even though it’s less than a mile I was surprised by quite how much work needed to be done.
    http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/search?q=south+london+line

  161. Steven Taylor says:

    @Whiff

    Re Clapham Junction ELL Phase 2 enabling work. The first picture on this blog shows a train going into the new Platform 2, with a train from Imperial Wharf at the buffers on Platform 1 (the old Platform 2). The line at the buffers used to continue along to behind the cameraman. The Platform 2 is the new platform extended over the old Platform 1 road.

    I trust this verbal explanation is helpful – but i guess the picture says it all.

  162. Whiff says:

    Thanks Steven Taylor, I guess I should have checked the blog first as that’s a very useful photo.

  163. Steven Taylor says:

    A lot of work going on at Clapham Junction Platform 1/2 for LOROL extension from Surrey Quays. Most of the support girders for the 2 sided new footbridge was craned in on Thursday night, and the staircases were added this Friday night (16th/17th Nov). It looks as if they are trying to get this up and running for the 9th December opening date.
    The additional staircases are certainly needed in my view. I am sure that passengers are still increasing on the Clapham Junction – Willesden Junction trains – most seem very crowded.

  164. solar penguin says:

    There’s also a lot of rebuilding work taking place on the platforms at Peckham Rye. I guess that’s probably something to do with the Overground as well.

  165. DW says:

    Solar penguin, the buildings, which included a small but heated waiting room, on platform 1 /2 at Peckham Rye are being removed. It’s probably a necessary step as the island platform is quite narrow, and gets congested if trains arrive at both sides in the evening peak. A situation that isn’t helped by both the single staircase exit, at the eastern end of the platform, and the complete lack of any DMIs at the western end.

  166. Timmy! says:

    There’s a video on the Londonist site of the new route (from the driver’s view) here:

    http://londonist.com/2012/11/video-the-london-overground-extension-to-clapham-junction.php

    The article includes some interesting links.

  167. D.G says:

    @ Steven Taylor

    In response to the 12 minute journey time specified from Clapham High Street to Clapham Junction, this incorporates recovery time and takes into consideration the different permanent speed restrictions across points at Wandsworth Road Junction being 20mph and the long stretch leading into Platform 2 at Clapham Junction being a very slow 10mph!!

  168. Lemmo says:

    @ DW, I believe there is a plan to restore Peckham Rye station to its former glory, and in the process recreating a Plaza in front of the station, but I’ve heard no more about progress.

    The station used to have side platforms on the London Bridge lines but when lengthening was required the 3-track alignment afforded the opportunity to provide an island platform. Is there a need to replace the island platform with side platforms? I haven’t seen this as part of the ELL plans…

  169. Steven Taylor says:

    @D.G.

    After posting. I realised I was a little `hard` on London Overground. Apart from the initial restriction at Wandsworth Road, and the 10 MPH into Clapham Junction which you mention, the rest of the route has a 25 mph restriction, apropos 45 mph Battersea Park to Clapham Junction.

    I am sure the new link will be well used, and I will be at Clapham Junction on the 9th at 7.20 to get the first public train.

  170. cal says:

    Does anyone have any idea about journey times from Peckham Rye to Highbury and Islington once the extension opens?

  171. timbeau says:

    34 minutes according to the published timetable

    compare with
    47 via Victoria
    49 via Farringdon and Moorgate
    51 via St Pancras

  172. DW says:

    @Lemmo
    I’m aware of the plaza plans, but don’t know if the funding has been secured, or if it’s just an aspiration. There were workmen at Peckham Rye this morning inside the closed part of the station where the old metal staircase is, hopefully that is being brought back into public use. And up on platform 1/2 several stainless steel frames have appeared, which look like supports for new seats.

  173. Anonymous says:

    At QRP they’re building a new entrance and lift upto the platform. Getting stuck into it this last week, wonder if they’ll be done by the 9th.

  174. Steven Taylor says:

    Currently over 20 contractors on site at Platform 1/2 at Clapham Junction laying new tarmac, cleaning the new Platform 2 canopy with rags and doing general electrical and signage work. Even the substantial weed/bush growth on the disused Platform 0 trackbed has been cleared.

    I assume, apart from `good-housekeeping`, it will create a good impression next Sunday (9th), when the final link in the Òrbital Railway`opens between Clapham Junction and Surrey Quays.

    I was wondering if Boris will turn up next Sunday?

  175. Michael Jennings says:

    Are they resigning all the stations (or appropriate parts of them for places like Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye) with the Overground branding before the opening? And do the station staff all get new uniforms? (Staff at Crystal Palace seem to wear uniforms with Overground branding, although that station possibly handles more Southern services than it does Overground services).

  176. ELL Driver 2 says:

    Boris is turning up on Tuesday I believe.

  177. Steven Taylor says:

    @Michael Jennings

    Re signage – on the `new` Clapham Junction extension, the only stations that will be run by LOROL will be Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street. So these will get the orange `Roundel` name boards. I assume these will be the only stations that will be re-branded.

    Also, LOROL will be staffing these stations as well, which will be a big improvement. About 20 years ago, Clapham High street came bottom in a survey of the worst stations in Britain. As an old user of this station, often late a night, I can testify to the abysmal state of the station.

  178. Steven Taylor says:

    Anyone planning to do the last Kensington/Wandsworth Road/Clapham High Street Ghost trains this Friday?

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Suburban Commandos: Transport and London 2050

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Londoners with a particular interest in politics and planning may have noticed a new phrase appear in the lexicon of both in recent months – London 2050. In this article we take a closer look at precisely what that phrase means, and how thinking is shaping up so far. For when it comes to transport infrastructure 2050 is far closer than one might think.

Crossrail: Reading the Future

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At yesterday’s TfL Board Meeting “Crossrail Enhancements” were discussed, in a non-public session, and agreed. These enhancements were the extension of Crossrail to Reading, which will be officially announced today. That Crossrail will be extended to Reading should not be